This is a follow-up to Frances Widdowson Dedicates Her Life to Denying Residential Indian School Survivors, Then Calls Herself the Victim, published earlier today. The original piece noted that Widdowson had been reached for comment but did not respond in time for publication. Shortly after it went live, she did.

What followed was an extended exchange in which Widdowson made her case, I made mine, and we went around and around in a loop that felt, by the end, almost geological in its repetition. I am publishing the full conversation here, lightly edited only to correct my own speech-to-text errors, because I think it speaks for itself. The final three messages she sent speak for themselves in particular.

I will let you read it first, and then I will say one thing at the end.

The Exchange

Me: Hello Frances, I would like to know if you would want to comment on this story before I publish it.

Widdowson: Sure. Thanks for asking. Regards, Frances.

Widdowson: The question is whether the "remains of 215 children" have been "confirmed" at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School. What is your position on this?

Me: Why is that the question?

Widdowson: That is the claim that I am pursuing. All of your other assertions are really irrelevant to this.

Widdowson: Why won't you answer the question?

Me: I guess I'm just curious why this is the claim that you are so focused on pursuing out of everything. What exactly does it change for you, or the things you find important, if the answer is yes or no?

Widdowson: Because this is the card in the house of cards. Why are people so invested in upholding this falsehood? Do you think making truthful statements is important? If so, you should be very concerned with what you are publishing because it is filled with errors. I can give you a list if you are interested in the truth.

Me: I think I was pretty clear that the findings are ongoing. What house of cards is being held up exactly?

Widdowson: Many people believe that the "remains of 215 children" have been confirmed. This was the best evidence of "genocide" that was presented. This is why the Aboriginal Industry cannot give up on this claim.

Widdowson: Do you know that I was wrongfully terminated from Mount Royal University?

Me: I'm very well aware of your firing from Mount Royal University, yes. I am an alum from there.

Widdowson: Do you know that I was wrongfully terminated?

Me: There seems to be far more evidence than just the burial claims. Are you suggesting that Canada didn't harm Indigenous people with the residential schools?

Widdowson: No.

Me: You were terminated after a long investigation with multiple witnesses and many pages of exhibits.

Me: And my question is why is this the specific crux? If Canada indeed did harm to Indigenous peoples, then the specific number of bodies in a specific location seems important but secondary.

Widdowson: I was wrongfully terminated, and this should be mentioned if you are not a bad actor.

Me: You were fired from Mount Royal University after an investigation.

Widdowson: Because trying to get people to think that children were buried clandestinely matters. Do you not think it matters whether hundreds of children were buried clandestinely?

Widdowson: This is why people were so upset in May 2021.

Widdowson: And Indigenous people are still traumatized by this false claim.

Me: OK, so once again I would have to take a step back and ask — if you believe that the Canadian government and officials working in the residential schools never did any harm off the books or off the record, what you are asserting is that there is no possibility of any particular undocumented grave harm done to Indigenous people simply because it wasn't on record.

Widdowson: Listen — these are all complex arguments. It is claimed that we must have truth before reconciliation. Isn't it important to get to the truth about Kamloops before we get into all of these other issues? Or are you just trying to deflect the conversation from the main point that I am trying to make?

Me: I'm definitely not trying to deflect here, but it is curious to me why you would die on this particular hill. I believe that the trauma and the intergenerational harm that residential schools have perpetrated onto Indigenous people and families such as mine is there regardless of the particulars of the Kamloops claim. There are many other residential schools that have also had anomalies found within the soil.

Widdowson: It is up to the people making the claims to provide the evidence. Excavations are needed to provide the evidence. Why aren't the excavations being done when $12.1 million was provided?

Widdowson: I am curious as to why people want others to believe things that are false.

Me: I don't think it is the right of colonial settlers to demand that Indigenous people excavate the bodies of dead children just so that you can win an argument.

Widdowson: They applied for money to excavate the area, and they said it was a crime scene, and the perpetrators needed to be brought to justice. This was their claim, not mine.

Widdowson: I share their supposed concern that the perpetrators of a mass murder should be brought to justice. I am surprised that anyone would oppose this and not want the truth to be found out.

Me: Right, okay. And it just still is a curious issue as to why you are so invested in how a particular Indigenous community grieves and processes and tries to reckon with the extreme harms that were systematically done to them.

Widdowson: Two plus two make four. Once this is granted all else follows — George Orwell.

Widdowson: The truth matters, and it is only authoritarians who don't think it matters.

Me: If anything, it sounds like you are an advocate for trying to expose the incredible harms that the Canadian government has done to Indigenous peoples, but you are frustrated and upset that they have not enacted a specific process that you believe they should be doing by now.

Widdowson: The question of harms is a complex one, but certainly 215 children were harmed if they were murdered and buried clandestinely.

Me: And it seems bizarre to me that you dedicate and focus your anger and fury at the Indigenous communities instead of the Canadian government, and those who we already know are actually responsible for the harm done.

Widdowson: You are making all sorts of assumptions for which you have no evidence.

Me: I'm sure you would never ask a Jewish community to provide specific evidence of concentration camps instead of looking through German government documentation and archives.

Me: Do you understand that you are pursuing a vulnerable, marginalized community and ethnicity that was the subject of violence and harm for centuries?

Widdowson: Nonsense. We have the names of people and graves excavated. (edited)

Me: Right — I'm not saying it is a perfectly comparable situation, but my point is that you are pointing your finger at the group that was harmed instead of the people who caused the harm.

Widdowson: Anyone who makes a claim about clandestine burials would need to provide evidence of this in any other context.

Widdowson: Why are we not demanding evidence in this context?

Me: Again, Indigenous archaeologists understand that this is an ongoing process, and that the anomalies found in the soil have not been confirmed one way or another. And the reason why this isn't being demanded as evidence is because there is already plenty of evidence of harm done to Indigenous people at residential schools. It is difficult for Indigenous people not to see what you are doing as a form of denial — as rubbing salt into a wound.

Widdowson: The question is not about harm. It is about whether children were buried clandestinely. Stop changing the subject.

Me: Certainly the question is about harm. The reason you care so much about the graves is because it is a particular point of evidence of harm.

Widdowson: There is evidence of harm. There is no evidence of clandestine burials.

Widdowson: I am not arguing against harm. I am arguing against clandestine burials. You are trying to make it about harm so that you can set up a straw man.

Me: My question is not that. My question is: why have you dedicated yourself to pursuing this question in a way that Indigenous people are harmed by?

Widdowson: Because it was this question that set off the country into mass hysteria on May 27, 2021. This was a deception to extract all sorts of concessions because people thought this was evidence of genocide. We need to go back to the start, correct the falsehood, and then we can move forward. Until we have a reckoning we cannot do this.

Me: Again, I need to take a step back and ask you what exactly this mass hysteria you talk about is. Do you think people care too much about the harm done to Indigenous people? I'm not really sure where your grievances are here. What you consider an incredibly pivotal point of evidence, others would consider secondary — semantics, splitting hairs. And it feels as though you have weaponized this fundamental difference of understanding in order to align yourself ideologically with people who will give you money and support.

Widdowson: Nonsense. It matters whether children are buried clandestinely. Do you think this matters as to whether it is true or not?

Me: I feel at this point I am repeating myself when I say that there are many other points of evidence, and that this particular point of evidence is part of a current, ongoing process.

Widdowson: What are the points of evidence?

Me: Are you asking me to list out evidence that severe harm was done to children at residential schools?

Widdowson: We do not have the name of one child at Kamloops.

Me: No — you are asking me for evidence that they were killed and the murders were covered up.

Widdowson: I am talking about clandestine burials, not harm.

Me: And I am asking you about the future you are looking forward to. What exactly will you have if you are proven right? If we were to wake up tomorrow and it was found there were no bodies at Kamloops, would you celebrate?

Widdowson: Casimir was asked in the Senate for the names of any child associated with "the 215." She declined to answer. Not one name has been put forward. Not one family who claims that their child went missing.

Me: I understand you have many points of contention. But my question is: what do you gain by being right in a situation you have dedicated your life to? I have been trying to ask you this in many different ways.

Widdowson: We must have truth about Kamloops. If we can't have truth about this, we can't have truth about anything. Two plus two make four.

Widdowson: A society that does not care about whether claims are true or false is not a society worth living in.

Me: OK, but first of all, you are living in that society. If you really believed that, you would disengage from our society entirely, because there are many falsehoods and pieces of misinformation that are commonly accepted. You seem to fail to grasp that I am trying to articulate that you are fixated on this specific point of contention when there are many other falsehoods that are much more widely accepted as truth.

Widdowson: I care about the Kamloops claim because I know so much about it. I am one of the most knowledgeable people about this case.

Me: The only reason you're so knowledgeable about it is because you want to prove Indigenous people wrong.

Me: I care about falsehood, and I have dedicated my life to shedding light on falsehoods.

Widdowson: You are attacking me because I am trying to correct a major falsehood that is having a negative impact on society.

Widdowson: This is the mystery — not that I am trying to correct a falsehood.

Widdowson: No one should have to apologize for trying to correct a falsehood.

Me: There it is again. You say it is a negative impact on society. I see that you do this often — you say that the particular point of Kamloops has caused mass hysteria and a huge negative impact, but I don't really understand what those are exactly. You cannot point to the trauma these claims have caused in Indigenous people; they were already traumatized.

Me: I am not asking you to apologize. But I am certainly asking you something more existential.

Me: It just seems like a nonsensical place to put all of your time and effort when there are many other falsehoods that I believe are causing much more active, malicious harm to people. And I only say that because the only answer you can give me is that you care about truth here.

Widdowson: I don't have to correct all falsehoods, but I try to correct falsehoods when I see them — especially if I know a great deal about them and think that a given falsehood has had a terrible impact on society.

Widdowson: You are attributing motives to me that are seriously wrongheaded. If you cared about truth you would not be doing this.

Me: See, it just doesn't really hold up. I'm sorry. You are knowledgeable about this because you want to be right, and you want to prove this marginalized group of people wrong. You claim this falsehood is causing a terrible, hysterical impact on society. In the process of your journey trying to uncover the truth, you have aligned yourself with people who are anti-Black, anti-Indigenous, anti-trans. I could go on. You say this is purely about the epistemology of the Kamloops claim, but throughout the years of being a vocal advocate for this position, you have politicized yourself and aligned with an ideology that has done far more malicious harm.

Me: I will do my due diligence and add what you have said here to my publication. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.

And then she sent these three messages in a row.

Widdowson: "I have spent my entire life learning how to stay close to what is true even when the language is slippery, the stakes are high, and the people on the other side are very loud. Loudness is not evidence of being silenced. Performance of persecution is not persecution."

Widdowson: If this is true, you should rethink your article.

Widdowson: "The children at Kamloops received no such courtesy."

Widdowson: What "children at Kamloops" are you talking about?

She was quoting my article. She is so certain I am wrong that she wielded my own words against me as evidence. The last message is hers.

What "children at Kamloops" are you talking about?

I don't have anything to add to that, I don't think I need to.